Confidence, Charm and Charisma, with Vanessa Van Edwards

I have Vanessa Van Edwards on and she is amazing. She talks about studying body language. And you're probably going to be saying to me, "What the freak are you doing now, Stan?" Well, just hold up for a minute. Body language is one of the key elements that gives away a customer's intentions. So when you go out and you meet a customer and you give them a proposal, if you can understand the little intricacies, the little tiny things they're doing and what they mean, it gives you an inside track. I can't tell you how many times I've gone out to a customer's house and because I take the time to understand and try to develop a deeper knowledge of body language. I've known when my proposals are dead on, when I've walked away knowing that this customer is going to sign on the dotted line and other times before I've given them a number, I know that I need to change something if I'm going to connect with that customer. That's what she comes on and talks about today. She runs this program called the science of people and the science of people website impressed the hell out of me. I mean, you go to her YouTube channel and everything you need to know to get a basic understanding is right there available for you to click on a video and download. It took me forever to get her to come on the show. So, we packed a ton of information into a very short time. I want you guys to pull everything out of this you possibly can. Then go check out her website and continue to develop your skills. Continue to develop that knowledge because that is going to be almost like the cheat sheet that gets you more jobs. That's why I pursued it. That's why I study it. I heard her on other podcasts. And when I brought her on, she was, like I said, absolutely amazing. So, get ready. I think you're going to love this show. Check it out. Let me know what your thoughts are. Send me an email. Shoot me an email just saying, "Hey, what's up?" I love talking to you guys. You guys, you're my fans. I'm your fan. I love interacting with you guys. So, hit me up. Check this podcast out. Let me know your thoughts. I hope you enjoy it. I hope you pull much as much out of it as I did by by doing it. So, sit back, strap in, and get ready because here we go. Yeah. Hello everyone. This is Stan Genetic and I have Vanessa Van Edwards on the line. Now, she is an amazing entrepreneur, business leader, but more importantly, she runs the school for the science of people. That's where I discovered her. She has a ton of absolutely topnotch videos. And before we get too much into it, Vanessa, I just want to make sure you can hear me, okay? Do we have a good connection? Yeah, you're far too kind in your interest, Dan. Thank you. So, Vanessa, I've actually listened to you on Jordan Harbinger's The Art of Charm, and I was immediately taken aback by just how advanced your body language reading courses were. I went online and I typed in the YouTube videos and I was blown away. You have over a hundred videos, I believe, and there's nothing hidden there. You give it all away. You teach entrepreneurs, landscapers, contractors exactly the things that they need to take their business to the next level. And what I want to talk to you about today, Vanessa, is when a contractor, an entrepreneur, I don't care who you are, any tradesman is going up and making that initial meeting with a customer, they need to learn how their body language affects the outcome of the interaction. And they also need to understand the subtle cues that the customer gives them that lets them know if the customer is picking up what they're putting down, if the customer is buying into what they're trying to sell, or if the customers completely shut themselves off. Can we go into that in more detail? Yeah, sure. So, I think that there's a a big myth and it really disrupts our business as entrepreneurs where we focus all of our energy on selling oursel on what we're going to say, right? We prep for a client meeting or we prepare a portfolio or we have pictures for them or we think about what we want to say on our website on our about page or on our bio. The problem is when you first meet someone it doesn't really matter what you say it matters how you say it. And that is the research has found that when you first meet someone in oneth of a second onetenth of a second we decide if we trust someone if we like someone and if we're going to buy from them. So, Vanessa, to build off from what you just said, there was a study done, and I'm just going by sheer memory, where a group of six men and six women had to listen to uh 65 doctors, I believe it was, and to tell which ones were sued for malpractice. Okay. Yes. And out of that study, they had a 90% accuracy rate. But it gets more interesting. They were not allowed to hear the words that the doctors were speaking to the clients. All they were able to hear was the tone of their voice and the actual words were muffled and I think it was limited to 10 second clips and they were had a 90% accuracy rate to determine who was sued for malpractice and who wasn't. So that's how impactful your statement is. Yeah. And and I love that study and that's one of many many studies that show that the doctors you should look at uh malpractice rates based on doctor's performance. Right? You would think the more skilled the doctor is, the less he would get sued. And the le and the least skilled he is, the more he would get sued, the more mistakes he would make. Not true at all. The doctors that got sued for malpractice were not had nothing to do with their skill level. All it had to do with was how charismatic they sounded in their voice. Not what they said, how they said it. The person felt like the doctor cared about him. Really, that's what it boils down to. Yes. Exactly. And so let's break down charisma a little bit. You know, Stan, that I love the science. Everything we do at Senseville is researchbacked. I actually run a lab. So we take all this research that's out of academic institutions and we try to make it applicable because they have these studies that are 20 pages long and like absolutely you're unable to understand them. So I'm like, where are the nuggets that we can actually use? And what we found is there is research on charisma. You do not have to be born with it. You can learn charisma. And there are two specific facets that make up charisma, specifically warmth and competence. Now, when people think of charisma, they often can't put their finger on it. They're like, I don't know, that person just has that thing. They have that uh that quality that's just really memorable. What they're talking about is the perfect blend of warmth and charisma. Warmth is how relatable you are, how engaging you are, how much you show you care. But competence is just as important. For charisma, you have to be competent, that's credible, that's dependable, that's loyal. So having those two things. If you're just warm, you're a pushover. You're nice, but you're a pushover. If you're just competent, you're intimidating. You're smart, but you're intimidating. So we want to have both. And that is what you should be focusing on when you're calling people, when you're first meeting with people, when you're networking, when you're pitching, when you're negotiating. So cocky does not relate to confidence or competence. No, it does not. Correct. We've got to make that distinction because the last thing you want to do is come off as arrogant. A know-it-all does not doesn't doesn't come off as a good impression. So you you got to you got to have that perfect blend. So, let's take it a step further and let's kind of go into some of the the body cues that contractors should be looking at, the nonverbal cues that they should train themselves so that when they go into a meeting, they're they stop thinking about them and they just automatically kind of pick them up and start going with them. Mhm. Is there anything in specific that you can give us? Any any words of wisdom? Yes, definitely. Um, so there are about 10 different warmth cues and I'll I'll go over some of my favorites. Um, it's on a podcast. You know, we only can do so much because you can't see can't see my face or body, but we can definitely do some that you can apply right away. Like today, I want you to right after this podcast, go try it with someone. So, uh, the first one is something that's called fronting. So, fronting is a non-verbal engagement cue, and it's basically how you show someone non-verbal respect. And it's aiming your toes, your torso, and your head towards the person you're speaking with. Now, people are always like, "Okay, like that makes sense." But in over 90% of interactions, people point their toes outwards. So, they actually have like a 90° angle where they point their toes out. That is a nonverbal sign of disengagement. That's basically saying to someone when you're meeting with them, especially if you're standing on the street with them or you're w you just walked into their office or you walked into their house, you shook their hand and you have your toes pointed out, which we think looks casual, but actually what you're saying to them is, "I'm not fully here. I'm not fully present and you can't fully depend on me. So, that is a super easy thing that when you're talking to someone, when you're standing and talking to them especially, but even sitting is to aim your entire body towards them cuz that underlies your conversation with full engagement. It's so easy, but we just forget. We forget to aim our toes and torso towards that person. So, I have a question for you regarding that. It's a I first off, I want to say thank you for bringing that up. I have looked so many times online trying to figure that very specific point out where if you're talking to someone, I've always made a conscious effort to aim my torso at them. And what I found is that nine times out of 10, they they aim away. The more you aim toward them, the more they'll aim away. And is that because they feel like you're too confrontational or they're or they are not they're disengaging from what you're trying to say to them? It might actually be a space issue. So, usually engaging with someone by aiming your your body towards them by fronting is not a confrontation cue. But what is a confrontation cue is proximics. Proxmics is like the scientific word for space between people. And so, if you're fronting with someone, but you're also leaning in towards them and or you've taken a step too close, that is confrontational. So, make sure that when you're fronting, if you think that they have just turned their feet out or they've crossed their arms suddenly over their chest or they're leaning back, you're probably just in their intimate zone. So everyone has intimate zone, social zone, and personal zone. So let's talk about pecking order too as you get into that, Vanessa. Not only do we have the space constraints, but then is there kind of a natural pecking order that leaders establish and followers naturally assume because I've also noticed that when you front someone, if they turn to the side of you, sometimes they will actually go so far as to step behind you where it almost feels like you're talking over your shoulder trying to engage them. Yes, definitely. It's it's it's a partially it's a leadership cue, but it can also be a processing thing. So, if you're explaining something to someone and they're trying to figure you out, they're trying to figure out, do I believe this person? What what is he or she talking about? They will sometimes take a step back. It's a distancing behavior to try to give themselves space. So, there was a study that showed that when people take a physical step back, it helps them assess the situation better. It's like, you know, being giving yourself some space to figure it out. So, it could be a leadership cue, but it also could be that someone's just trying to figure out what you're saying and if they trust you. We've talked about fronting. You said you had 10 steps. Yes, there there are 10 different steps. And also, by the way, I have um seven of them that are the verbal ones up for free on my website. I I give everything away if I can. Um so, you're welcome to get those. They're um seven steps to influence and they're all free on my website. So, seven of them are on there. Uh fronting is one of them. Um let's see, what else could we do easily on a podcast? the well, one of the things that bothers me a little bit about some of the body language myths that are out there is when you say to people, "Oh, you know, I teach body language." They say, "Oh, yeah, good posture, good eye contact, good handshake." Those three things are great. It's a great place to start with those, but they're so it's such a small part of the story. In fact, eye contact can be a confrontation cue if used incorrectly. So, so many people, they've been told, "Make really strong eye contact when you're pitching a client. really make that good eye contact when you're meeting someone for the first time. But the problem is is that in an average conversation, normal eye contact is 60 to 70% of the time. So if you are engaging in more than 70% eye contact, you are seen as creepy. You are seen as aggressive. So, you might be over eye contacting with someone, which is going to cause them to do exactly what you just said, Stan, which is to disengage, which is to step back, turn away, pull back, uh, turn their toes out because what you're doing subconsciously without realizing it is actually threatening to them. So, I'm going to build on what you just said, Vanessa, and then you'll correct me cuz you're the expert and I'm a landscaper. Um, so a a good way to rate how well how effective your eye contact is is to look at them just long enough to notice the color of their eyes and then glance away. Perfect. Perfect. And that's why it's actually wonderful if you can meet someone outside because what you're doing is making eye contact and then gesturing out. Making eye contact and then gesturing out. So yes, you meet them, you notice their eye color, and then you start talking about your surroundings. It's actually so much easier to do that than in like a stuffy cubicle or office because there's very few places that you can look. So, it's wonderful if you could build into your pitch into that first meeting where you're gesturing to things or you're showing them pictures, you're showing them a pitch, you're showing them a proposal, that is a wonderful way to have really direct eye contact and then looking at something else, right? That 60 to 70% it stays really strong. That's that sweet spot. So, what about the soft touch on the shoulder or elbow? Is that still kind of the okay thing to do or is that invading a person's face? I would not say the shoulder. And the reason for that is because if you think about your body, there's actually like a touch map on top of the body. And the touch map sort of the guidelines are that the further up the arm you go towards the torso and the head, the more intimate the touch becomes. So the hand, the forearm is the safest space for touch, the upper arm, the shoulder, the back, never the head, never the torso. You don't you don't pat him on the head, Vanessa? No. Yeah, you don't you don't pat him on the head. Good boy. Good boy. Yeah. Even even a slap on the back um is a little bit more intimate unless you're really close with someone. So, all of those are not as safe. Handshake, forearm touch is very powerful. So, first of all, always handshake. And luckily, we know this. Thank goodness society knows this one about body language. And the reason for that is because when you touch someone palm to palm, oxytocin is released in the brain. And oxytocin is nicknamed the cuddle hormone. It's basically the hormone that comes out when we touch someone, we cuddle with someone. It's the chemical explanation for bonding. It is literally how we feel. It's a chemical that comes out when we feel connected to someone. So, when you meet someone, every single time you see them, at the beginning and at the end, always take that time to walk across and sh give them a nice hearty handshake cuz it's going to build that oxytocin. And uh they say a handshake is worth about 3 hours, 2.7 hours of face to face talking time. So it's it's a huge bonding opportunity and you can also do as you mentioned that that soft touch. I would not recommend a shoulder. I would recommend either the hand or the lower arm. Um study after study proves this is to be this is the case and this is for both men and women. So waiters and waitresses who slightly touch someone's forearm or hand when they leave the bill get a 41% increase in tips. So, I heard another study that says if a waitress drops off a piece of candy and then turns walks away and then makes an intentional effort to turn back around and drop off a second piece of candy to that table, they can experience up to I don't know like a 23% increase in their tips. Is that something you've heard too, Vanessa? I haven't read that study, but um so we do a book club in our in our website and we're reading influence right now by Robert Calaldini and he says uh that reciprocity is one of the factors of influence. There's I think he has eight factors of influence and reciprocity is one of them and he talks about that that candy giving giving someone a piece of candy as you're as you're leaving as a waiter or waitresses is enabling the reciprocity effect which basically says that when you give someone something they cannot help but feel more indebted to you and so they end up giving you more of a tip. They give you a smile. They refer you. They write a review. It's it's like you've engaged in a basic tenant of human behavior which is I give you give. I give. So, your book club is reading a Robert Kaloni book. You're not part of the Oprah book club then. I No, no, we have a we have a fun like it's a free kind of whoever wants to read with us and then we all have like a big party hangout session where we talk about the books. I want basically my New Year's resolution this year was to read more. And so I decided to set up a science book club. And so our book this month is influence. So we talk about the the principles of influence and we talk about stories and how we use it in our businesses. And then we just selected our book for next month which is the honest truth about dishonesty. So that's by Dan Arieli and I do a lot of human lie detection. This is a book about lie detection about what do we lie about? Why do we lie? How do you know if someone's lying? So that's our book for February. I would love if if anyone wants to join. Oh wow. That sounds like an interesting book. I'm reading the latest one right now by Carol Kinsey Gman. Um the truth about liars in the workplace I think is what it is. Yeah, it's a good book. Yeah, that's a good book. So um we've covered three so far. We've talked about facing some a person, the eye contact, and then the soft touch, which I I brought up. I don't know if that's on part of your list. Is it or or uh touch is touch is an optional one. So, there's a couple that I have that are like only if you're okay with it. They're kind of advanced techniques. I personally consider touch an advanced technique. And the reason for that is because a if you're not comfortable with touch, I would never recommend it to you. like right if if I always want you to be authentic in your interactions and if you don't like being touched I would never want you to try to touch someone else because that would be extremely inauthentic. Um it's also you have to do it right. You know if if it doesn't feel natural to you if you're not a very touchy person when you reach out and touch someone they're going to feel that awkwardness. It is palpable. So I consider touch um like sort of a advanced optional one. Like another advanced optional one…