Tires or Tracks on a skid steer in Deep Snow-Can you plow with a tracked loader?

All right, you guys. We're going to fire it up. I'm going to shut up and let you guys listen. You know these myths come in that that our competitors often like to say, "Oh, it's going to chunk up." Yes, it will. And two, that doesn't matter. All right, you guys. We got a really full show for you today because we are going to be testing this ASV in hyper deep snow. We're talking about 7, 8, 9, 10 ft deep snow. And we're also going to be hooking up with the guys from ASV. These were the people that originally created tracks, but not just any tracks, tracks to go in extreme conditions. And we're going to be testing just how extreme that we can push these tracks to the limit in this machine today. But we're also going to go a little bit deeper. We're going to be talking about what kind of tracks you need for the kinds of conditions you're in. We're also going to be dispelling a few common myths out there about tracks. You see, there's a lot of sales people out there are telling you the wrong thing. And so, today we're going to get rid of all of the misinformation. Well, hopefully we are. And we're going to actually have a lot of fun. And well, we're just What are we doing? LET'S JUST START DOING IT. WOO! THIS IS THE 74 horsepower RT75. What we're going to be actually doing is talking about and showing and demonstrating this thing in deep snow in this video. So, we're actually got We got some mounds of snow ready for this thing. But, you guys were the ones that originally invented tracks for snow. Right? Yeah. Yep. So, just the Posi-Track system in general has always been great in the snow. We come out of northern Minnesota, Grand Rapids, Minnesota. Uh we actually started with the the Tracks Truck, which was a snowmobile trail groomer. Um and now the Posi-Track system you see today is is different than that, but it still has its roots in snow. Um and so, all all the ASV machines uh come standard with four-season tracks. So, now what? Yeah. The ASV, last time we got together and we really want to talk and demonstrate and show these guys that tracks can be meant for snow, deep snow, but not every track, right? ASV and Takeuchi, you guys were the two original manufacturers of tracks on skid steers, right? Correct. Right about the same time frame. Yep. So, yeah, in in '91 we released the first US-built track loader for certain. And and uh you know, what what year exactly they started building or when exactly I I can't speak to, but uh but you know, they imported in the US about that same exact time we started building here in the US. Right. evolution there, right? So, Takeuchi probably came in with very little snow history or snow experience, whereas ASV came in with a vast history of snow experience, right? So, um our founders, Edgar Hetteen, actually founded Polaris, Arctic Cat, was partnered with a guy by the name of Gary Lemke, who was an Arctic Cat dealer. So, two well-known Minnesota snowmobile companies these guys worked with prior to ASV. So, a lot of history in snow, a lot of experience there, right? So, they took that experience with track systems and snow and actually built a dirt machine. So, I mean, it's definitely a dirt machine today, but man, very capable on snow because of that history and that and that knowledge. And obviously, we're based in Grand Rapids, Minnesota, so Yeah. we have to move a lot of snow around in here. Absolutely. We need to actually talk about the differences not in only the tread pattern, but I want to be very clear and actual the the tracks themselves because now am I right or wrong but or is there an MTL and a CTL? Is is that the two am I wrong or right? I don't know and I know that's kind of like the industry common thing, but I don't know if it's an accurate thing. For sure. So MTL that stands for multi-terrain loader. That's actually a CAT branded term. That's the term that CAT uses for the undercarriage that's similar to ASV on those machines. Yep. Compact track loaders actually kind of span the entire variety of those types of machines. So technically an MTL is a compact track loader as well. What ASV has going on is the Posi-Track system which I think Buck can speak to. The things that ASV does different than everybody else and and you know, not just Takeuchi or CAT, but the things we do different than everyone, you know, key features that help it perform well in snow, you know, you can start with ground clearance, right? Yeah, 15 in of ground clearance on this thing. That's your friend when you're out in deep snow like you will be you know, with this machine. Yeah, it's got an insane amazing ground clearance. I mean, we were actually driving over actual logs and not hitting them. I mean, we were you and I were when we were out doing a forestry mulching video. I mean, I'm just looking underneath and going he's just straddling right over the top of that. So we were able to float over a lot of places. So ground clearance is an important thing. Does this have better ground clearance than a typical machine? Right, wrong, or in between? Yeah, industry leading for certain, yeah. So it technically has 15 in of ground clearance which is the most for any tracked skid loader on the market right now. Now that ground clearance does a number of things. It allows you to clear obstacles very well. That's one of the most important benefits to having high ground clearance. Remember Tim, when we brought uh we brought another machine out and we're talking about how it was belly dragging? The whole time. The whole time. Muddy soils and you were Yep, scraping the belly the whole time. Yeah. So, I Yeah, I've never seen one of these up close, so this is nice. A lot of ground clearance on it. Yeah. Yeah, so that's an important thing. So, if you guys are in the market and you're like, "Hey, what should we be looking for when we're buying a track loader?" If you do snow work, there's we're going to get to that because we want to actually show you the tread pattern that you need. It's not kind of sort of or you can get by with. Right now, I've got a Bobcat T180 parked at my house. Hey Tim, what do you think of that T180 out here? I sometimes pull it out of the uh shop and if you slide down a little ramp, park it cuz it's going to be worthless. So, all right you guys, instead of talking about the differences in the tracks, I have a machine that's set up with dirt tracks and I don't use it for snow plowing because it's pretty much just useless. I keep it as a emergency backup and to uh one of my other backup machines. In fact, here she is right there. You can tell If you can't tell, she hasn't seen much action this winter. Thankfully, I haven't had as many breakdowns as Well, I don't want. I just haven't had many breakdowns. All right, so let's take a look. Let's unbury the tracks on this thing and then take a look at what the actual dirt tracks look like and you cuz you guys will be able to tell a a big difference. This may take a minute. How are you guys? That's Now, this is a Bobcat T180 tracks. Designs have changed. You're going to get different track patterns. But, this is a dirt pattern. And as soon as you get it out into these conditions, she pretty much can't move. There's a number of factors that create for the optimal track situation. One of them is ground clearance. Another one is tread pattern in the tracks themselves. A third one that we need to cover right now is weight distribution. Getting those tracks so that they take an equal amount of weight from the rear to the front is very important. In fact, when you look at at a lot of the other competitors trip where their tracks are and their weight is, they're typically very rear heavy. A lot of the mass of the machine is over the backs of those tracks. And when you do that, you're going to have sinking conditions. I witnessed this firsthand in Florida when we were working in sugar sand where a competitor's machine literally the back of it sunk and we had to dig it out. Weight distribution is a huge factor to allow you to float. You'll see it in snow, too, you know. So, that that weight distribution's going to help you on the snow and the ice, right? Have weight heavy or So, when you engage your bucket, right? You drop it down on the concrete, you start scraping concrete. On a lot of machines with rear weight bias, you engage that bucket and the front of the track wants to come off the ground and you're just driving on the rear wheels. So, all you have is that little rear wheel providing traction. Mhm. And in a skid steer design, you've got an even weight balance and then you've also got a suspended undercarriage. This becomes your friend because as you engage that bucket in the front, this suspension actually suspends not only up to give you a smooth ride, but also down to give you traction. So, you engage the bucket, this drops down, we got a nice even weight balance on the track system, and that's what's really going to help you move some snow. So anybody understand that? Not a clue. Tim, you get you got it? Tim, did you get it? Yeah. Yeah, I didn't I didn't get it. We've been up for a while. Can you say that in All right, so wait a minute. In our In all of our defense, Buck, we've been up since well, pretty much all day and night cuz it's been we've been snow plowing. So, we're a little loopy. I'm going to say that. I've been studying this for 24 years. You've had like 2.4 seconds of I just gave you the condensed version. you say that in English? The suspension, cuz you've pushed you're pushing up on the body, in some designs you'd be lifting the track right off the ground. In the ASV design, the suspension allows that track to drop in. And the reason that's important, you guys, is the more track you have in contact with the ground, the better the traction you'll have, and the more you're distributing the weight of the machine over the tracks to give you the least pounds per square foot on the ground. By keeping the weight distribution over the largest possible surface area, this will give you better traction and flotation. So, really what you're saying is as the bucket goes down, the front I is it called an idler? Is that what Is that the proper terminology for it? Sure, this would be this would be an idler wheel, bogie, you know, common names, but some are bogies. that would typically go up, but this one will actually angle down to keep full traction on the ground. Yep. This is a suspended axle, so this axle actually can move up and down. So, if you hit a bump here, this wheel can be driven up. Suspension, right? Oh, cool. And if you raise Say you engage the bucket and you raise this part of the platform, the suspension can drop down. So it just helps you keep contact with the ground in all conditions. All right. From an operator standpoint, that little bogey wheel that floats in the front makes a world of difference for operator comfort. I've owned a number of different tracked skid loaders and anytime that you are running a tracked skid loader, it's a lot like driving in a tank. Every bump you hit translates right into the operator's back. If you haven't been there, well, trust me, it does. It kind of sucks running a tracked machine. With this machine, actually the ride is almost as comparably smooth as it is to a tired unit. But, you get a world better of traction. All right. Let's talk about the tread pattern on the tracks as well. I really want to make sure that we get that cleared down because this is all Yeah. Yeah, so you know, we've kind of talked about the machine a lot, the suspension, but as you get to the track itself and where you engage the ice, you know, just like with cars, right? You got snow tires, you got street tires, etc. What we do at ASV is we're really providing a track that is an all-purpose, all-terrain track. This is the same track we run in the dirt, is the same one we run in the snow. Yep. And we're able to do that because it you know, it's a very unique design, right? Not having steel bars inside of the track. We actually have a uh composite cord in there that provides the structure to this track that allows it to flex around the frame. And then we're also, because of that weight distribution, all these other things I'm talking about, able to run a fairly non-aggressive tread pattern. We don't have to have a big blocks and big uh tread pattern to get good traction in dirt. We can actually get it through the amount of surface contact. And surface contact on ice, that's your friend, right? The more this contact the more this contacts the ice the more traction I'm flat out going to get, right? So, what you'll see from ASV is one tread pattern all purpose track. What you'll see from most competitors is they're going to have a standard track and then they're going to have a snow track. And their snow track patterns actually typically look a lot like our standard basic track. So, you got a very wide open carriage right here. Is this good or bad because I want to talk about maintenance expense? Because there's people talking about that this is a higher maintenance a higher expense track system. Tell me what you guys how you guys talk about that. Sure. So, let me I'll start with snow, right? I mean one of the biggest one of the biggest evolutions we think happens in the 20th century is the single rail undercarriage, right? So, again a unique ASV design. We refer to this as our single rail design and and we do that because you do just really have one frame rail running down the center, right? And then all of the idler wheels are suspended from that single rail and out here in the open. And most designs you're going to be familiar with that's going to be a closed tub Yep. referred to as, Yep. right? And that enclosure really what that does it it's enclosing the wheels. We had those designs 10 years ago. We got away from that because the single rail gave us huge advantages in wheel life and undercarriage cleanliness. So, what it does in the snow is as snow is getting in here and trying to pack on everything, if you had an enclosed rail the snow packs underneath it, packs on top of it. Unfortunately, if you park it outside overnight you might get up in the morning and the sprockets will be iced up that kind of thing. Yep. By getting to an open design, you can see that the material is then able to actually fall out and self clean. So, this design is really focuses around self cleaning and trying to let as much of that material fall out as we can. Now, is that applicable for dirt as well as snow and ice but It is, absolutely. Because one of the great things that you know it going to help you with snow and ice, but it also helps you with rock and trees and sticks and logs. As those things fall in, what we found in our closed tub designs is that it fall in in the closed tub, the wheel will carry it around, trap it in there, right? As soon as the wheel traps it in there, that object can do damage to that wheel. But, if that object can fall in there and pass through and fall back out, now it's not doing any damage and it's not depending on you to go out and clean it. So, we we saw wheel life improve exponentially by getting to this open design. So, you know, it is something that when you get in rock and debris and and uh sticks and logs that you are going to see wheels that a rock comes by and chunks or chips the edge of this. The key to that is don't panic. That is normal wear and tear. It is something that is visual, not necessarily functional. Okay. So, where uh these you know, these myths come in that that our competitors often like to say, "Oh, it's going to chunk up." Yep. I will I will encourage you to uh to to know that yes, it will, and two, that doesn't matter. We actually love it. We will allow this wheel to wear. Our typical recommendation would be allow the rubber on the outside of that wheel to wear at least 70% away before considering a replacement. So, just like you're going to let the tread wear off of your tires, right? You're going to wear at least 70% of that tread Mhm. before you would consider a replacement. Same can hold true with this wheel. Furthermore, in certain conditions, you know, snow, sands, etc., there's going to be no wear, right? Yeah. In rock, you're going to see those chunks and chips. Secondly, if you're at at 70%, you consider a replacement. I mean, let's go a step further. Let's say we let 100% of that rubber wear off there. It's all gone. All off. Now what do we have? We actually still have a functional wheel. You still have your steel idler wheel, which to have an idler wheel contact the track on a steel wheel. How much rubber's on it, right? None. So, if we wore all of it off, it'd be equivalent to what? You're already running wheel on Okay, so wear and tear, wouldn't that be worse for tracks than have steel on rubber? Wouldn't that wear the tracks down faster? Precisely. So, the object of this rubber right here is only to provide a cushion between the wheel and the track. So, what this rubber does is improves track life. And And you know, we really uh we strongly believe we have the longest track life in the industry. 2-year 1,500 hours standard warranty you're going to get with this guy. So, uh in 1,500 hour warranty uh our average owners are seeing 2,000-ish hours in average. And we're going to stop right there because some of you guys may go, "Oh, I don't I'm not seeing that." But you may not be running an OEM actual manufacturer's track. You may be running an aftermarket track. And if you do run an aftermarket track, and if it's not made to the same standards that these guys make, don't expect to get the same results. So, I want to stop some of these arguments right there saying, "We don't see the results that Buck's talking about." Make sure that you're comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges. You can buy cheaper tracks, but you're not going to get as long a life out of them. Just plain and simple. What would you say guys that are typically running the CTL, the steel tracks, with the undercarriage? What kind of What kind of track life did they normally see? Well, in in direct head-to-head comparison tests, right same guys, same same environment, we're seeing about half of that. So, I'm talking averages and I'm talking, you know, head-to-head same place. Okay. And there's going to be different materials you're in. Sand is going to be more abrasive than soft soils and your black dirt to your peaty mosses or your clays. They're They're always going to function. You guys going to be all over the world. You're going to have different different life expectancies because of the types of materials you're running in. But if we're doubling Typically doubling the track life, are these more expensive to replace? Why are guys thinking this is more expensive to you? Yeah, so I I honestly a lot of that expense conversation focuses around these wheels and people seeing a chunk or a chip and not understanding the function of the purpose of that wheel, right? So, you run in and replace this wheel every time you see a scratch or a chunk in it, it's going to get very expensive. But, if you understand its its purpose in life and just how ugly that guy can really be before any replacement is required. So, that is really some of the major differences guys should look for and is there anything else that we should cover with tracks that so that these guys can go out and when they're looking at tracks, they know what they're getting into and know what to be looking for on on their machines. Right. The other big difference between the ASV design and others is the sprocket. So, we run what we call internal positive drive. An internal positive drive has got this roller, which I'm turning with my hand, that engages a lug here and rolls as it engages that lug, right? Okay. Where that differs from most designs, dozers, other compact track loaders that they will have a through sprocket design…